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Keith Williams's avatar

Very interesting article. Thank you especially for the "squalid sins" quote.

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Duane Numrich's avatar

Love your writing. That stuff on transfer payments was super-informative. I live in the province of Moe, and it's nice to have confirmation that he's full of crap. I mean, I know he is, but it's nice to see it spelled out and explained so well. Thanks for that.

Forgive me for this, I can't be arsed to substantiate it, but honest to god this is what happened:

I looked up the Covid-19 virus on a sciencey website, just to get a basic understanding of its main characteristics. I took away from that reading that Covid-19 was highly infectious and able to jump species because of what I will call a "third leg", because again, can't be arsed to look it up again.

I looked up the Wuhan lab, found out who the director was at the time, a woman whose name I am too lazy to look up again. She was doing some gain-of function research at some point in her career, and apparently applied for funding to pursue this with DARPA, which declined to participate. I appreciate the utter bizarreness of a Chinese researcher applying to an American defense research agency for funding to research viruses. I still remember this detail because it struck me as super-odd.

Her research was attempting to add a third leg to a strain of coronavirus - she had observed something like it in viruses that had successfully jumped species, and felt this was going to be the Next Big Thing in viral evolution, or whatever you'd like to call it. The plan was to create this new virus, then develop a vaccine for it before it ever occurred naturally so we'd be ready. This actually seems to me like a pretty good idea, although creating a super-virus that doesn't yet exist in order to fight it seems inventing the gun so you can invent the bullet-proof vest. But that's the goal of benign gain of function research, at least in my understanding.

So, she applies for funding, inexplicably to me, from DARPA and doesn't get it. So here comes the conspiracy part - the stuff above I honestly believe is a matter of public record, although I admit I may have misunderstood it. Let's say she decides to do the research anyway, but because it's not funded, it's 'off the books' and has to be done in a less-secure lab, with less scrutiny. She succeeds in creating the three-legged Covid variant, but it leaks before she can develop the vaccine. In my more entertaining version of the story, it causes zombie-ism. Enter Brad Pitt.

I don't actually have an issue with the animal origin story either - as you point out, that's how it has usually happened, maybe always happened, in the past. But the idea that it could not possibly have come from a gain of function research accident doesn't strike me as completely out of the question either.

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

The most important thing is that there a very big difference between something that is 1) possible or 2) whether it is likely.

I cited several people in that article, who pointed out there is no evidence for the Lab Leak theory, and it has to be said, that politicized investigations coming out of the U.S. are not credible.

If something has a one-in a 100-trillion chance of happening, it is still possible, but it does not mean it is likely or probable, especially when an explanation that is extremely likely.

If you compare the two explanations:

1) Covid emerged like every other pathogen in history, naturally, in a country, China where such pathogens routinely evolve and spread around the world (with SARS being a recent example).

2) Or the virus was deliberately engineered in a lab and escaped and caused a widely predicted pandemic

It is astronomically more likely that it is of natural origin, because throughout history, we have evidence that that is what has happened.

One of the aspects of conspiracy theories is that they are about control - the idea that someone has the capacity to create such a virus, and cover it up. It assumes nearly godlike powers of creation and control, and that is what people find reassuring about them, because it means that even if the people in charge are inhuman monsters, there is still someone in charge.

The idea from Murphy’s law is that “whatever can go wrong, will” is wrong - whatever can go wrong, usually doesn’t.

In both logic and in science it is impossible to prove a negative, and honest science communicators have a professional obligation to talk about the world and their work in a way that should not reflect total certainty.

There are real limits to our knowledge and to science.

This means that honest scientists will always sound less certain than people who are communicating and saying things that are certain.

The other is that the people who support the lab leak theory generally have a track record of being less credible, like Matt Ridley, who has a history of being a writer who sows doubt about sound scientific evidence.

If folks are surprised that there was International scientific collaboration, especially on infectious diseases, that is reflection of a pre-Covid, pre-Trump world where governments recognized the urgent need for collaboration on infectious diseases.

SARS was a disaster that taught the US, Canada, China and other countries that we lacked the basic coordinating agencies to act in the event of deadly pandemics, which are inevitable.

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ABossy's avatar

What a fascinating article. I have many thoughts, but the most pertinent is in regard to, “The rules don’t apply to me/You can trust me”, and pathological narcissists. Remember Stockton Rush? He was the CEO of Oceangate, creator of the Titan submersible. He was quoted as saying, “At some point, safety is just pure waste.” And we all know how that ended.

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Kevin Mayes's avatar

"This entire article is about how there is NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to claiming that this is "designed" or "engineered."

Actually it's not- it's an assertion that it came straight from nature without the agency of a microbiology laboratory as an intermediate vector.

The 2007 Foot-and-Mouth outbreak in the UK was likely caused by a lab leak at a government-funded research station in Pirbright, Surrey. A report by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) stated that the virus strain found at the first affected farm matched one being used by the Institute for Animal Health (IAH) and Merial Animal Health Ltd. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12615-faulty-pipe-blamed-for-uk-foot-and-mouth-outbreak/

So why is this not possible elsewhere?

Please explain.

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joe bongiovanni's avatar

While my rationale lacks any commonality to this posting, I have indeed been saying the same thing since very early 2020 -that the 'lab-leak-theory' for the origin of Covid-19 was an impossible conspiracy theory, provable mostly deduced by common sense.

A conundrum is presented, a conflation and also proof positive is evident of the effectiveness of the conspirators. Money talks. Hang on.

You see, this entire posting relates to THAT the 'lab-leak-theory' is one of the two theories extant for the "origination" of the Covid-19 Virus. Too bad y'all been had.

It is not scientifically possible for the lab leak theory to be placed on a tmeline that precedes "origination". It can only 'leak-out' a long time after its laboratory. or other, origin.

Origination is the very beginning of the creation of the C-19 Virus.

Nowhere here is actual 'origination' of the virus ever discussed, except, again by conflation and confusion, presenting, to me, a public policy conundrum.

All the talk the ink, about the lab-leak-theory' has for many years now provided a narrative cover to the real matter important to the public viz-a-viz the actual health of the population

Where did the Covid-19 Virus come from?

How, by what process of design and engineering, did it originate?

The Lab leak cannot answer that question, it is long after origin that the virus achieved critical mass to make the Pandemic.

The lab leak theory theory is all Bull "LOOK ! Over here ! "

Contrived? Or an error ?

Either, a tragedy.

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

This entire article is about how there is NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to claiming that this is "designed" or "engineered."

The idea that the virus was created - when there have been deadly pandemics and plagues throughout human history - is based on the false belief that a human being, or some conscious entity, is responsible and can be "blamed" for a natural evolutionary process that has been going on for billions of years.

There have been plagues and infectious diseases throughout all of human history. None of them were created in labs.

There are trillions upon trillions of viruses and bacteria in nature that are continually making copies of themselves, and as they do, they develop mutations which change their interactions with the cells and bodies which they infect and use to make more copies of themselves.

It does not require a "critical mass," what matters is infectivity - how quickly it spreads in a body, and between bodies - plus the health impacts.

There are diseases that are extremely infectious and easy to catch with serious health outcomes (like measles); colds are easy to catch with few serious outcomes.

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joe bongiovanni's avatar

Dear Douglas

“”This entire article is about how there is NO BASIS WHATSOEVER to claiming that this is "designed" or "engineered." “

My response is quite simple and as straight-forward as I can be., but thanks for the opportunity to comment.

Your response here lacks even a single word of ‘science’, and is rather one hundred percent hyperbole that seems to profess by an implication some ‘science’ numbers to the uninitiated.

You revel in your ability to pronounce 'Millions and Billions of irrelevant historic observations, none of which address any science behind resolving the issue at hand……. ‘But, where did it come from?’.

I am pleased that you managed to evolve to the ‘science’ question of the “origin” of the virus that caused the Pandemic, and away from the ‘Lab-Leak’ conspiracy construct – which has nothing to do with Viral Origination, but which as an explanation was put together for a smokescreen, but only after Dr. Anthony Fauci “corrected”, with new Grants ($$) to all the Virology scientists who had openly concluded initially that COVID _ 19 was of laboratory-origin, by identifying SIX specific scientific ‘markers, ’ that had no history of origin in any known natural selection process.

FYI, Dr. Rand Paul, U.S. Senator from Kentucky, has collected all the relevant contract documents by which Fauci funded the Gain-of-Function research to create the COVID-19 Pandemic through Grants to various Virology laboratories that were responsible for ALL the research that moved those six markers into their SARS Covid-19 ‘solution’.

May I suggest that you query Dr. Paul’s office for confirmation.

Thanks again for the opportunity.

Respectfully,

joe bongiovanni

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

I will tell you exactly what the problem with your argument is, which is that you think America is the world.

I’m writing from Canada. Fauci did not have a say outside the U.S., which is 340-million people on a planet with 8-billion.

Canada has its own public health agencies, its own researchers, its own approval processes for vaccines, and so does the rest of the world.

Dr. Rand Paul is a crank. He an eye doctor who couldn’t get certified as an eye doctor, so he set up his own medical certification.

There have been deadly pandemics throughout history that arise naturally. They are part of nature. A major pandemic was predicted and expected, because they have happened regularly and naturally, around the world for all of recorded history.

Throughout that history, people have been blamed for creating illness out of superstition - blaming people for a natural disaster, because people want a scapegoat.

Blaming China for creating the virus is an extraordinary claim, and it requires extraordinary evidence.

It means people blame China, while ignoring the catastrophic failures of the public health response in the US and elsewhere.

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joe bongiovanni's avatar

LOL

You seem to think that Fauci never funded his Gain-of-Function research at Labs outside the US.

In reality, he spent decades and $$Billions in establishing NEW Laboratories throughout the Globe - a half-dozen in Ukraine.

You also seem incapable of acknowledging my point, which IS that Fauci funded the research that successfully joined the COVID 19 virus to humanity …. without which, no pandemic .

THAT is the ORIGIN story.

Once more, LAB-LEAK cannot be an ORIGIN story, as it was already ORIGINATED for some period BEFORE it could LEAK from anywhere.

They are two different things.

.

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Kathleen McCroskey's avatar

Thank you, great post, well detailed. Note that Wuhan and some other labs (Winnipeg, etc.) were engaged in "gain of function" experiments, in cooperation with NIH, and that Wuhan was a dept of Chinese military. We supposedly have treaties against biological warfare, so why was that situation allowed, and any reason for "gain of function" certainly needs responsible public oversight. Perhaps the thought was that this work was going to happen anyway, so have NIH involved, and likely other countries having oversight in other labs, which could explain the Chinese military presence in Winnipeg, as well as certainly, that would be the least demanding in security of any other n. American lab. You saw, of course, the picture of the cat sitting on the lab bench at night in the Wuhan lab, tapping the side of a beaker until it fell on the floor.

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K. Huth's avatar
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Dougald Lamont's avatar

Whatever.

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K. Huth's avatar

Crabby, are we? No but come on, you gotta admit it's funny how you accidentally wrote "[when] humans . . . were butchered for food." Classic!

And OK, maybe I should have saved my deliberately obtuse misreading of "Bad practises" for a copyeditors conference somewhere, but I didn't want you to feel left out. I take it you're not a big P. G. Wodehouse fan, eh?

I did however appreciate your article and references and wish I'd had it three years ago when a much-more-qualified friend was promoting the conspiracy.

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

You're not funny, or helpful, or charming. But you are banned.

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Kathleen McCroskey's avatar

Oh, brother. In the greatest percentage of instances, "Bad" is an adjective. You choose to employ "practices" as a verb? Very funny. If this were YouTube, I would mark you comment and it would disappear!

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T-Bone's avatar

Interesting read, Dougald, and as a non-expert can only defer to expert consensus on this which appears to tilt toward natural origins. Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with some of your framing.

For example, you don't mention that the lab leak theory was stigmatized as racist and xenophobic by Fauci, Nature magazine, etc. early on, which likely had some effect in shaping scientific consensus towards natural origins.

You mention that the lab leak theory has to be weighed against the fact that all past pandemics have had natural origins. But this doesn't tell us much, because we didn't have the know-how to develop novel pathogens in labs until the 20th century. Worrying that a virology lab may have leaked a deadly pathogen in 2020 is not necessarily a resurgence of medieval superstition. I agree that Wuhan's non-cooperation with investigations-- violating the IHR-- is not 'positive evidence', but it is worrying circumstantial evidence. Anyway, just my two cents.. Cheers

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

It is a regularly observed phenomenon throughout history that human beings blame each other for natural disasters, including plagues, earthquakes and crop failures.

People have been blamed and killed for “poisoning wells” because of mass hysteria.

Opinions about Fauci’s opinions are not facts.

Conspiracy theories, like the one behind the Lab Leak, or any other disaster have this in common: the idea that there is some person who is actually in control of the situation, and who either caused it to happen, or allowed it to happen, while requiring us to believe they have godlike powers of organizational perfection beyond the capacity of any human being to deliver.

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T-Bone's avatar

I don’t follow. The lab leak theory requires that people can engineer harmful viruses in labs (which they can) and that the virus can leak from labs and propagate (which they can). These are not god-like powers. Am I missing something?

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Dougald Lamont's avatar

Yes, judgment and probability.

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T-Bone's avatar

The question is why godlike powers are required to produce an infectious disease outbreak through a lab-leak.

We invest massive resources and attention to preventing lab-leaks, suggesting experts think they are all too possible, and can result from mere accident.

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